By Local Democracy Reporter Daniel Esson
Plans to play music at a bar’s terrace have been delayed amid fears of “an intolerable effect on residents.”
Sundowner’s bar in Margate will need to show council officers plans for amplified music after being told it could pose a nuisance for neighbours.
In May, Iain Maxstead of Proud Pink Inns applied for permission to Thanet District Council (TDC) to remove a planning restriction which stops Sundowners bar from playing amplified music on the terrace. The terrace is owned by Thanet council.
Since 2007, the planning restriction on the space above the Victorian Shelter on Marine Drive in the town has disallowed the LGBTQIA+ bar from playing amplified music, although they point out that massive concert venue Dreamland sits only a few minutes walk away.
TDC’s planning committee was meant to decide on the bid at a meeting on August 21 but have deferred the decision to assess noise levels.
With a gallery packed with public supporters, Mr Maxstead insisted to the committee: “We do not seek to play loud music we seek to play background music for customers and visitors.
The music is intended “To give atmosphere to our customers who are enjoying the view and the general ambience of Margate seafront,” he continued.
“We all hear Dreamland no matter where we live in the district, nobody truly will hear the music from the terrace.”
Some town centre councillors backed the bid, with mayor of Margate Cllr Jack Packman (Lab) telling the committee: “The owners of Sundowners have been very clear that they do not intend to have loud music or live performances in the terraced area under the current application.
“Sundowners represents a key underrepresented group and has consistently provided a safe space for the LGBTQIA+ community,” he added.
Cllr Rob Yates (Lab), a former mayor himself, said: “Dreamland and their noise receives a much larger number of complaints if I’m honest.
“The economic benefit of having amplified music outweighs the impact on the residential amenities and surrounding neighbours.
“I’m very concerned that the Sundowners venue would not be viable without having amplified music on this terrace, and as one of the few dedicated queer-friendly venues in East Kent this would greatly damage the local economy.”
The application had received 90 letters of support from the public, and 28 objecting to it, but TDC officers were recommending members vote down the plans on grounds of noise disturbance.
Some residents of nearby Albert Terrace are not so enthused by the plans for outdoor music.
Brett Moore, a planning expert speaking on behalf of resident James Read, told the committee: “The current application seeks your consent to allow amplified music to be played on the terraced area for up to ten and a half hours a day, every day for seven months of the year.
“Since April 2021 it’s understood that your environmental health officers have received 14 separate complaints from occupiers of nine residential properties in Albert Terrace.
“Members should be aware that all complaints relate to the unlawful playing of amplified music on the terrace deck.”
He stressed that allowing the music “would represent an inappropriate, unneighbourly and wholly unacceptable form of development.”
Cllr Steve Albon (Lab) said that: “For Sundowners to play their music, albeit at a low level on the sun deck is their choice – the residents don’t get a choice, they’ve got to listen to it.
“Everybody has a right to live in their home without interference especially from loud music.”
Though, he stressed that a middle ground could be reached, and suggested that council officers look to find a volume which they would think is acceptable.
TDC’s environmental health team strongly objected to the application because of the noise, and a planning officer told the meeting: “Their comment does make clear that even at background levels there would be harm to neighbouring properties.”
Cllr Kristian Bright (Lab) said that “with a heavy heart” he would vote to refuse the application, adding:“I just think it has an intolerable effect on residents, they’ve lived through it already, and at whatever level I think it would be very difficult for them to just get on and live their lives.
“They can’t just go out and get triple glazing or something like that.”
Cllr Mark Rattigan (Con) stressed the need “to strike a balance” between the interests of Sundowners and neighbours.
“You’re not living in the countryside you’re always going to have noise around there,” he added.
The committee voted to defer the decision to a later date to collect more information.
Council officers will now go to Sundowners to see the speakers which are to be used and assess the volumes, before it comes to the planning committee again for a decision.
One person’s background music is another’s pain ,and Dreamland should not have so loud you can hear up by qeqm Dreamlands music should be inside,the people on this sight who want it ,do not live next to Dreamland,so it doesn’t effect them
TDC is clearly operating a set of double standards.
There have been far more complaints about Dreamland noise affecting a far greater area of Margate. And yet Dreamland’s licence was waved through.
The increase in the number of complaints was dismissed as acceptable because an increase was expected when the Council agreed to 48 outdoor events to take place between May and September !
And yet Sundowner’s licence is deferred because it is situated in a residential area. Dreamland is surrounded on all four sides by residential property and yet a different set of rules are applied . . .
Have residents noticed that the volume levels for the Dreamland live events have reduced? I live a mile or so away and the recent events certainly seem quieter!
So you live more than a mile away and yet you can still hear the music – that says it all.
Dreamland is different, Dreamland isn’t all the time,only when special events are on , but sundowner will be most of the year ,which wouldn’t be fair on the people living in and around the area, this would ruin their quality of life ,
Why is Dreamland different ?
Sundowner’s only operates the outdoor balcony in the summer months.
Dreamland only operates the outdoor stage during the summer months.
That appears to be exactly the same to me.
Dreamland is licensed for 48 outdoor events – so there are two, three or even four every week during the summer months . . . so that is pretty regular and consistent.
However, you are right in what you say about it being unfair on people in the area and ruining the quality of their lives.
Sundowners application for 10 hours a day, seven days a week, for 7 months of the year!! Is that different enough ?
Dreamland is 3/4 nights a week ,from spring to autumn, thats not occasionally,far from it ,sortitout,do you live close by , bet you don’t
For interested in a place that preaches diversity, that’s probably the whitest public gallery I’ve ever seen.
Two wrongs do not make a right . Dreamland should never have been given Its licence to extend the music events because of the negative impact this has on the
Iives of local residents in its vicinity, much the same with the.proposal put forward by sundowners. Let’s hope common sense will prevail .
I have never had any problems with Dreamland noise or Sundowners noise however what I do find very annoying is the Pizza Hut at Westwood loud noise playing inside the restaurant is bad enough however they also have speakers on the outside of the restaurant and they are playing the music from early morning all day it drives us mad because we live across road.
Obviously Ken you don’t live next to Dreamland of Sundowners,and Pizza hut is not amongst houses ,it wasn’t last time I checked
Sundowners constantly lie about stuff. they shout bad language from a microphone across the beach and it’s owned by a convicted peadophile Gareth Braithwaite it is not a “safe space” it’s an embarrassing dump and is bad for Margate, the Mayor should be ashamed supporting this aswell as a labour councillor putting profit before people
“The economic benefit of having amplified music outweighs the impact on the residential amenities and surrounding neighbours” Rob Yates ( who last year held his annual Mayors fundraiser there ) unbelievable
We’ve lived here for 47 years and never been treated with such disdain by Labour councillors
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/12757050/filing-history
This doesn’t look good at all. The two company directors Duncan Bayles and Gareth Braithwaite were both given termination of their appointments in the latter half of 2023.
There is nobody registered with significant control of the business anymore and they are overdue with their accounts to company house, and there is an active notice for compulsory strike off from last month, July 2024. The business is only 4 years old too. What a fiasco.
TDC should look into whether or not this bar will even be around in it’s present form in a few months before deciding on music in public.
There seems to be a undesirable history with this business if you research it and it seems to be more than 4 years old as I previously stated above.
So this is the reason why Duncan Bayles Directorship was terminated in October last year. https://theisleofthanetnews.com/2023/10/19/sundowners-in-margate-temporarily-closed-while-new-management-put-in-place/
Meanwhile, was this the same Gareth Braithwaite the other director of Sundowners, a former Kent Director to a taxi company who was jailed in 2013 for abducting a 14-year-old boy for sex? Was it the same Duncan who stood up in court to say “Gareth is just a regular guy who got caught up in a situation that got out of control”? Is it the same Duncan who now finds himself caught in the spotlight of child sexual abuse himself? I hate to think so. His court case scheduled to begin in October 2024.
https://theisleofthanetnews.com/2023/10/17/sundowners-bar-boss-denies-charges-of-sexual-offence-against-children/
People deserve much better of the authorities in checking out Directors and management records in keeping predators away from vulnerable adults and children who frequent their premises and elsewhere. It’s not okay for anyone to slip through the Safeguarding net. Directors need to be squeaky clean.
I hope the latest takeover of this infamous business is thoroughly checked over and CRB’s fully investigated by Police and TDC licensing before further business expansion there of any kind. The authorities need to be on top of anything like this before issuing any licenses.
The second link should have been as this https://uk-database.org/2013/10/25/gareth-braithwaite-chatham/
The big difference is that Dreamland gigs benefit thousands of attendees. Local pubs and shops do well out of it. As do taxi companies, fast food outlets, south eastern trains, local hotels etc.
A handful of people will benefit from music being played at this venue.
It’s not even in the same ballpark so stop making the comparison.
i think the music should be stopped as its far too loud and some of the people behind the microphone use such bad language at times which people can hear on the beach and is not good for children to hear !!! gender should not be broadcast across the beach !!!
They’ll hopefully be arrested soon (unless TDC go for the 2-tier approach too).
“…to play music at a bar’s terrace…” would imply that the area belongs to Sundowners, but later in the article it states that the terrace is owned by TDC.
If the latter is true, are the council being paid any sort of rent for the use of the terrace by Sundowners? If the ruling about the music goes in favour of Sundowners then surely an increase in rent would be expected?
“The economic benefit of having amplified music outweighs the impact on the residential amenities and surrounding neighbours” says a guy who isn’t one of the surrounding neighbours!
“I’m very concerned that the Sundowners venue would not be viable without having amplified music on this terrace…” when talking about a site that has been a bar for at least the last 40 years!
I have always thought that music is a bit like food, a question of taste! No one would force feed food to someone that dislikes it intensely, so why is loud music permitted to be played in public to people who can’t stand it? What would be the reaction if a string quartet played loud chamber music instead of some meaningless racket that passes as music nowadays!
PS. Just heard Oasis are reforming, and my question is why? They are mediocre at best, and untalented at worst! Groaning into a microphone is not my idea of music!
Ray those square things across the road from Pizza Hut at Westwood are houses you need to go to spec savers.
My wife and I are both bisexual and always feel comfortable at Sundowners. It’s 2024 live and let live I say.
There are two houses opposite Pizza hunt Westwood and an estate some 300 yards away ,I doubt anyone could hear the music from Pizza hunt on that estate,or the two houses as traffic noise would wipe it out . The Times I have been to that Pizza hut,the music was not loud ,how often do you go there.And what has sexuality got do do with loud music, and i couldn’t give two hoots about your sexuality,why bring it up
Ray do you know that Sundowners is a gay bar that’s the reason I mentioned sexuality because my wife and I are bi and we go to sundowners occasionally and we are comfortable there it’s well run and happy place.
Yes I know the place is a gay bar ,what has that got to do with loud music,it doesn’t matter if gay straight or anything ,loud music is not acceptable,still no need to bring your sexuality into it
I was born homophobic don’t judge, and we homophobes hate loud music played in public!
There is no need for amplified music on the shelter roof top even if background music at low levels. Why does everyone want music wherever they go these days? People don’t want to be bombarded with music while out in public. Keep the music inside the premises and leave the public to enjoy Margate in peace.
That rooftop is a public area and so should be kept that way.
When is the Public Right of Way alley getting reopened that Sundowners have fenced off for storage of barrels? That is more important to find out.