Manston airport briefing to councillors from site owners provokes complaints

88 Comments

1. Thanet District Council could have waited to hold this “informal” meeting until the SoS made his decision.
   Predetermination R US

2. What exactly is a routine presentation? Can’t wait to hear about Tony’s electric barges and Rogers hydrogen planes.

   Just what is it with the minority aviation obsessives giving airtime to some mystery overseas cash and a failed aviator?

   • Oh get with the times ‘Emmeline’! Find out what’s really happening with technology now. We’re still not going around in horse and carts are we? Or sailing ships? 🙄🙄

3. Goodness me, so RSP are giving an informal briefing to TDC, to update them on their plans for the Airport….
   Well it’s hardly a secret, is it ?….Everything is transparent and open to scrutiny, The DCO just needs to be signed off by a Decision Maker within the Department for Transport..
   Everyone who registered as an interested party , to the development, was informed to the effect that any changes to Policy, or any other pertinent matter since the closing of the Examination, has been invited to respond, This is to assist an outside professional body, to determine whether or not the Granting of the DCO was correct,
   Nothing more, nothing less….
   That RTC, and the Green Party are objecting to a presentation is what it is….pathetic.
   They., RTC, are prepared to use public funds to the sum of £6,000, after already squandering £10,000, of taxpayers monies on the non starter Judicial Review, How can they justify this misuse of public funds ?…
   There are certainly many areas within their Town boundaries that could benefit from that money being spent wisely, not frittered away on the personal agendas of some of the Councillors ..
   It is right and proper that RSP keep TDC up to date with what will be happening at the Airport.
   Op Brock has been stood down, and the site is no longer required as a holding area for International Trucks,..The clear up from that is underway, When tats complete the site owners , RSP can prepare the site for the proposed development,
   Looking forward to the logical conclusion of the Acceptance of the DCO ..
   Hopefully the majority of Thanet residents will see and understand the benefits that the upgraded Airport is going to provide…Not swayed by a few short sighted and very bitter people, rabidly opposed to seeing Thanets fortunes on the up…

   • Well said.

     • LOL you planespotters are so funny
       Now when TDC spent £50K on an aviation expert did you object?
       Did you object when the aviation expert said that Manston wasn’t viable?
       Or is it only right to spend tax payers money on a positive report?

   • As opposed to those rabidly supporting it without any evidence to back up their position? The DCO examiners recommended refusal on so many issues and yet the SoS passed it then couldn’t back up his position. There isn’t one independent report on Manston ever that has concluded it is viable. I bet if this was a housing developer having an “informal” meeting there would be a few airpit supporters kicking off

   • Au contraire my friend. We see Thanet rising up as a fantastic staycation holiday resort, something which will only be damaged by regular flights coming in to spread pollution and ruin the towns under the flightpath for ever. The jobs promised are hot air, not reality. Time will tell, if your wishes come true. But for the time being there is no need and no benefit, if you actually look at the figures involved. But then you can’t have ….. you’ve just listened to the bull from RSP. So good luck with that.

     • a staycation holiday resort are you nuts lets be honest its full of drunks and drug user’s thurs to sunday night who in their right mind wants to take the chance and go down to the harbour area after 9-10 pm and see the local louts ruining the area

       • Even less attractive when built up to resemble a bargain-basement Milton Keynes on Sea. Wouldn’t take my holidays there!

   • “…non starter Judicial Review…”?
     Was that the one that resulted in the DCO being quashed, because the SoS didn’t know what he was talking about?
     I will be most curious to hear how the electric barge project is coming along. I imagine air cargo operators such ad FedEx and Wells Fargo are eagerly queuing up to have their perishable, just-in-time freight landed at the (inevitably exoensive) Manston Airport, unloaded from the aircraft, loaded onto trucks (via the town, because the tunnel is closed for repairs) into the Port, unloaded from the trucks onto the electric barges, chugged up the Thames to a jetty or quay (maybe the Town of Ramsgate), reloaded onto trucks and driven to its final destination.
     If the cargo was prawns, they could swim faster.

     The absurd thing is the the SoS has acknowledged he didn’t know what he was talking about, so now he’s asking people to give home reasons why he should allow the DCO (the reasons against being well documented)
     When will this farce end?

   • This being between TDC and RSP sounds totally dodgy. Are Thanet residents allowed to attend or is it going to be a hole-and-corner affair?

     • Correction-“This meeting being held…”

   • “Very bitter”? You’re good at jumping to conclusions about people, aren’t you “Ranger”?

     Not so good at jumping to the correct conclusions though.

   • Is that “the non starter Judicial Review” that successfully lead to the first ever instance of a Development Consent Order being quashed in this country. Right you are then #deluded

   • Is that “the non starter Judicial Review” that successfully lead to the first ever instance of a Development Consent Order being quashed in this country. Right you are then #deluded

   • Completely agree,

4. How about an informal briefing with residents who’s lives will be made a misery ? It seems the minority who are in support of the airport are terrified of any independent assessment or expert opinion and do anything to stifle it. Could it be they know they will be critical of RSP’s plans like every report before. Having a briefing by RSP is like getting the local burglar to give you advice on home security. No doubt Mr Freudmann will come up with some more spin gems

5. Support for a cargo hub is support for fewer jobs, not more. The Government Inspectors concluded it would kill more jobs than it creates. Given it employed less than 150 last time it seems bizarre to create a handful of low paid cargo handling jobs at the expense of the growing Ramsgate tourism economy. Why would anyone want this?

   Only Roger Gale thinks the ruin of Ramsgate is a price worth paying.

6. Will Green shut up for once ,he is very good at throwing town money away , but will not have a referendum for the people of Ramsgate to have there views , just put a boot in it green,or better still resign

   • So far as I can see he has been proved correct as the JR decision was quashed

     • To be specific, the SoS’s decision to overturn the ExA’s recommendation was quashed.

   • another rude planespotter
     Oddly what is difficult to understand is why people believe RSP led by Freudmann
     A struck off solicitor (27 counts of spending clients money)
     29 failed businesses including 2 different airports including Planestation where he ripped off local investors

   • the same could be said to you.
     When did you last stand as a councillor or do you only comment when it is about the airpit

7. Presumably any interested councillors could have gone along to the Examination in Public. There they would have learnt that there would be night flights and that the proposed development would lead to job losses in the tourism sector.

   • The DCO as passed by the SoS seems to have taken out any protection from night flights. I did go back to check the wording but the decision letter & any reference to it has been removed from PINS web site since it was quashed.

8. Ramsgate voted in town council elections for anti airport so referendum not needed.what will the cost be to local residents of sound proofing and modifications to listed buildings if as proposed aircraft that are too noisy for 6am London airports come to manston otherwise why propose in dco for that type of aircraft and that many more than Heathrow has at that time of the day.time many people actually read the documents

9. Can someone please tell me the difference between RSP giving a general and free presentation to TDC, for councillors to make their own minds up how they write to the DfT, if they wish to, compared with Ramsgate Town Council spending public money on an anti-Manston “independent ??? advisor” to help RTC Councillors how to write to the DfT? Oh I know – it’s called bias!

   • You can’t possible say any commissioned report would be “Anti Manston” until it’s written.
     However, unless it’swritten by anyone other than Sally Dixon of Azimuth Associates, it will most certainly paint a negative picture.
     As has every other independent expert opinion over the past 10 years.

   • The Planning Inspectorate conducted a lengthy and very detailed enquiry. They found that reopening Manston would have a detrimental effect upon Ramsgate. Residents expect Ramsgate Town Councillors to act in the best interests of Ramsgate so I hope RTC is doing everything it can to stop the airport reopening. The airport will fail as it has always failed but in the process it will make life horrible for those of us who live in our beautiful town. Most of the houses here were built long before the airport.

     • Manston Airport has never had £300 Million invested in it before, so comparing past failures and an apology for 2 stands, when only one aircraft could occupy the airport at any one time, with 19-24 brand new stands, is ridiculous.

       • You have the better of the rest of us, Ms Stevens.
         Not even the Examining Authority could find out where the £300M was coming from.
         Possibly because RSP don’t know, either.
         And, suppose the money turns up. What will it do? Build a rail freight terminal at Cliffsend? Move Manston a couple of 100km nearer to EMA and the big distribution centres?

   • In one, Sir.
     I object most strongly that RTC spent public money on a private vendetta without asking any residents of the town, myself included.
     Their view does not represent that of most people of Ramsgate that I personally know.

     • Reply to Ramsgate Resident (official) above.

     • RTC councillors mostly made it abundantly clear that were anti airport. We voted them in.
       Nothing else to say, really.

   • Reply to “Ramsgate Resident (Official)”
     The difference could not be more clear.

     In the TDC scenario, it’s a private developer with a live planning application giving a behind-closed-doors briefing to councillors 2 days before they comment on the application. (Imagine that was a housing developer giving a private briefing before a planning meeting and tell me again how it’s all above board).

     In the RTC scenario, there were no other externals present at the meeting – only the councillors. They want to submit an informed response to the consultation, so they vote to commission an independent expert, (and the clue here is in the word “independent” … so NOT the developer OR any anti-RSP campaigners), to brief them and help inform their response.

     If you had any confidence whatsoever that the airport really did stack up and was going to deliver the benefits you claim it will, you would not be in any way fearful of what an independent aviation expert might say. You would welcome it.

   • since 2011 there have been 12 yes Twelve reports written by Aviation experts. Some paid by TDC some paid for by Stone Hill Park two paid by Infratil (in 2011) and one paid for by the Government Planning with 4 planning experts.
     Not one conclude that Manston is viable (one even went as far as conclude there was a possibility of growth but only if Night Flights were allowed)
     So RR (official) would you post your aviation expertise on here so the readers can compare your knowledge

10. Even back when Infratil ran the airport the Aviation experts said it wouldn’t be viable without Night Flights
    “Importantly, the Airport has identified that the night noise policy needs to be put in place at this time as attracting additional regular air freight services, some of which will need to operate at night, is critical to improving the financial viability of the Airport. Without such operations, and the revenue which they bring, there is a risk that the Airport will not be in a position to sustain its operations and attract additional passenger services over the medium to long term. The growth in forecast passenger numbers over time will also help the viability of the Airport, but whilst such services may reduce the dependency on airfreight overall, the Airport is unlikely to be financially viable without the forecast mix of both traffic types as set out in the Airport’s Master Plan.” York Aviation August 2011

11. Funny that Labour & the Greens are objecting to this, when they didn’t object when RSP did a presentation to Rick Everett & the ruling Labour Party last year.

12. As TDC are the local planning authority, this RSP presentation tonight to ALL councillors is well overdue. It is NOT pre-determination as certain officers had suggested a few years ago. TDC are NOT the decision making body about Manston Airport. But I would have thought it vital for ALL councillors to know about RSP’s plans.

    • If (when) the DCO is thrown out, TDC *will* be the decision making body about any planning permissions to do with an airport. Including night flights.

13. I dread to think how we will be perceived by future generations. We are about to sacrifice arable farmland for housing, putting our self-sufficiency at risk and forcing ourselves to import food. Yet our housing needs could be met by a perfect brownfield site in the form of a redundant airfield. And to add insult to injury, we won’t just be losing our green lungs, we’ll also be filling our skies with hostile noisy aircraft that could kill off our tourism industry. Is there a Darwin award for this sort of decision making during a climate emergency?

    • The UK hasn’t been self-sufficient in food for over 100 years. Just saying
      The bigger issue is a lot of farmers are old enough to retire and cannot persuade their kids to take over so why not sell the land to a developer.
      When TDC ask for land to be included they were over subscribed

14. Cllrs should be exposed to a balance of views on such a divisive issue. By all means have a presentation by RSP but in addition also have a presentation from the other side. This is basic good governance, basic fairness and something TDC could easily have offered, avoiding the comments they’ve received. It’s what other councils do, listen to both sides, especially before responding to a Secretary of State. If TDC were having a presentation by the No Night Flight group only, I’m sure RSP would be making similar comments, as they should. In reality it would have made no difference to TDC Conservative and Independent Cllrs, who make up the majority, who have already predetermined that they are in favour of the DCO, an airport at any cost being their motto. This action by TDC confirms their predetermination and will bring in to question the outcome of future actions they might take, including as most people fear, an increase in the number of night flights already allowed in the DCO, quota count of circa 3,000 airplanes during the night period and 7 late arriving flights in the RSP application.

15. Here come the moaners, buy a home near an airport then complain about noise, its an airport for goddness sake. I’m sick of people moaning about everything, bunch of snowflakes living in the land of woke. I’m all for it.

    • Well said Audrey, I live. Under the flight path, let’s have the flights back

      • actually it doesn’t have a licence so it is a brownfield site currently

      • Living under the flight path seems to have seriously affected your ability to write coherent English.
        Thank goodness there were relatively few flights. Heaven knows what the effect on your cognitive abilities might have been!

16. Do you live under the flight path, Audrey? And if so, are you totally deaf, or just blinkered to the huge disadvantages (Noise! Pollution!) of aviation in general and at Manston in particular for those of us living nearby?

    • Hello Marva
      My haters comment was referring to any replies I would get to my views. Sorry should have made that clearer.
      Kindest regards
      Serena

17. If the airport reopens or doesn’t open people will never be satisfied.
    Surely there’s more important things to complain about .

18. honestly has no-one got anything better to do than moan about this that or the other you moan about it being an airport you moan about it being developed is there anything you do want it used as or do you want it just to be used as a lorry park for when the french barricade Calais oh i forgot you moaned about that as well

19. Funny isn’t that no one objected so harshly for the new train station at pegwell, but a against the Manston site because of noise, pollution and the environment! Station equals house price rises. Do not have to be genius to work it out people. I support using Manston as built for purpose. I know my view is not going to be like this but it is what it is. Don’t be a hater x

    • What exactly does “hater” mean when used in the context of commenting about the pros and cons of a large local cargo airport? If, that is, it means anything at all.

20. I’ve lived under the flight path for nearly 50 years would be really nice to see airport reopen just like I watch the helicopter s flying in and out .

    • There is no need for a freight hub at Manston. The air and noise pollution day and night will ruin the tourism and hospitality trade that Thanet is known for.
      The airfield from the past was never busy with large noisy, polluting planes so there was not much to worry about. If RSP and the out of towner plane-spotters got their wish it would mean this peaceful area shattered. The two will not go together.

      And, who is the independent aviation expert that the SOS is communicating with? Why has this been kept secret so far? There are plenty of aviation experts already consulted over the years that each have concluded that Manston is unviable. There is no NSIP case here at Manston and the SOS knows it.

21. M, I can’t think of much more important an issue than a lumbering polluting cargo plane coming in over the harbour every 12 minutes at 700 feet, screaming up Elms Avenue at 100db and the into land over Nethercourt at 200 feet.

    It ain’t 3 little planes to Amsterdam every week. This is monstrous volume on an inhumane scale.

    Why would anyone be glad about the ruin of Ramsgate and the end of sleep and of peace and quiet in our gardens?

22. And once again, not one of the planespotters who want the polluting cargo will apply for a job there. Not one. And not one of them knows anybody eager to apply there. They dont care about sleepless nighrs, as they are provably deaf by now, or their CPAP machines will drown the noise.

    Usual question: if Manston would not harm the health of people in Ramsgate, why would RogerGall not then support Heathrow expansion on the grounds that it would harm the health of his grandchild? Exactly.

    • I might add that at least 3 planespotters who lived under the flightpath have sold up and moved away
      Tells you a lot that does

    • 100% correct

23. This stinks of behind closed door “deals” for the betterment of a few and not Thanet.
    Brown paper envelopes.

    How many times do we have to reopen the airport before the same people accept that it isn’t viable…..

    There are no jobs for local people, it won’t bring business to the area….

    It’s a myth. It might as well be painted on the side of a bus as it’s all lies.

24. Closing comments until the morning

25. So Jupiter wants a referendum. Didn’t we have one ? It was called the council elections where the majority of RTC councillor’s were voted in on an anti-airport mandate. So anything they are doing to fight RSP’s plans is what they were elected to do. It’s called democracy.

26. Your lucky you don’t live near Heathrow. A few years ago I did a loft conversion right under the flyte pass man every few minutes. We were permanently shouting at each other to be heard. I even said to the customer why would anyone want to live here.

    • Quite evidently plenty do

27. Jeez …what a collection of miserable, whining moaning-minnies! We need the airport to get started ASAP to drown you lot out if nothing else. You prefer Thanet as it is? Depressed, decrepit, impoverished, deprived, everything closing down, companies pulling out and leaving? Where is the future in that? Or maybe you lot do not care about the future of the place because you are ok in your little bubbles? You obviously have no real interest or vision about the future as you make criticisms based only on the past and present. Or do you speak for those who simply want to build endless houses with no regard for the future consequences? What will you all find to complain about when the airport is up and running and established?

    • Jeez, it’s called debate. All the out of towners who want to pollute the area with airport noise and poisonous particulates don’t care about what Thanet already has.
      Having an airport in the middle of Thanet ruining the area is not going to make much change if we look down your route then won’t it?
      Thanet is making a go at bringing back tourism and the 24 hour stinky, noisy airport would destroy the peace and tranquillity, not just for Ramsgate but the whole of Thanet and beyond. Manston is the highest area of Thanet and noise will travel in all directions. There has never been a huge freight hub there before so many will not realise the destruction it would bring on their doorsteps.

      Why is it all the plane spotters are so rude in their comments?

      • Well ‘Plane-Spotters’ isn’t exactly taken from How to Win Friends and Influence People! Not to mention all the foul language, trolling and personal abuse over the years. A tad hypocritical methinks

        • can you let me know the last time someone offered to change your mind with a baseball bat?

          • Really?? Who and when?😯 May be all for airport, but wouldn’t take it to that

          • “Well ‘Plane-Spotters’ isn’t exactly taken from How to Win Friends and Influence People! Not to mention all the foul language, trolling and personal abuse over the years. A tad hypocritical methinks” maybe you need to revisit your words.
            Then there was Ann Gloag’s business manager who used to park her car at Minster until it was identified on Social Media as a target. Even yesterday on here Paul decided to post David Green’s road in his post. The comment was removed after I complained to the editor of the IOTN.
            Social Media is not a wanted poster

28. What a depressing selection of comments. For all your ranting, raving, spitting and hating none of you dummies seem to realise you will not stop RSP and their cargo airport irrespective of the outcome of the DCO (which will be passed anyway). They own the airport. They can do what they like with it and will. I seem to remember at the start of this Thanet pantomime, the airport haters were very ready to gloat how Mrs.Gloag owned the airport and can do what she likes with it. Well, she sold it to RSP because she realised she could never build houses on it. Now it is RSP’s 🙂

    • So many mistakes Freddie, just like Ann in claiming things only a clairvoyant could tell.
      Nobody here is ranting, spitting and hating other than airport supporters. Your memory is playing up then as Gloag didn’t sell to RSP she sold to SHP who sold it to RSP.
      If, as you are so sure it is going to be a cargo airport no matter the outcome of the DCO then why are you even bothered to come and comment? And why is RSP continuing with the DCO process?

      • Oh come on Kent Resident. You may know …or you may not ‘SHP’ was only a front for Pauline Bradley’s and Ann Gloag’s ‘Lothian Shelf 718’, a holding-company (with no staff and no activity) for the asset of Manston Airport site. A purely legal entity. So in the end it was Ann Gloag and co. who sold it to RSP Luvvie 😉

        • You are having a laugh
          Stone Hill Park was introduced to Ann Gloag after Freudmann and Gale were rejected by her in 2014.
          Trust in business associates is a fragile thing especially as Ann was introduced to Infratil by Freudmann in late 2013 but then told to sod off when she discovered who he was associating with.

          • Once upon a time, Tony Freudman was associated with the firm that owned and operated Manston Airport.
            It went bust.
            Why do you think it will be any different this time?

29. Paul, if people are keen to enjoy respiratory diseases and heart disease and stunt the academic achievements of their beloved children, why dont they move to Heathrow, Gatwick, or our direct competitor East Midlands?

    Does anyone know anybody (in Ramsgate, of course, not within the 90 minute radius that RSP labels as ‘local’) who is going to apply to any of the cargo jobs promised? Anyone?

    • I know quite a few FYI, eagerly anticipating it! However it is a couple of years away and people can’t hang around waiting for a job 2 + years down the line. The jobs will really be for those probably yet to enter the job market – from school and college, or those currently employed in other work. As I said, unemployed apply for what (largely quite pitiful) jobs are here now …maybe in the hope of better in the future!

      • Ok, so you are saying that you have unemployed mates who are eagerly awaiting min wage, zero-hours in deafening environment but it is 2 years away so they will pick a job now which they would drop then. OK.
        And that current jobs in the burgeoning tourist and hospitality industry are pitiful. OK.
        And that employed people in other jobs will leave those jobs for the min wage, zero-hours contracts in deafening environment. OK.
        And that the young people now in school will choose to go to Manston Polytechnic to get trained in the skills needed in the min wage, zero hours jobs. OK.
        Makes lots of sense. Do you envisage much competition for those jobs, if current hospitality jobs are lost, if B&Bs close, as suggested in the various reports?

30. Paul I note your comment about which road he had moved to has been removed. Can you explain your reasoning in advertising on Social Media the road he had moved to. Where you expecting people might congregate in his road to vent there anger perhaps

31. Ok, well the current sos made a move to keep the renewal on that site.

    Ok, who can say why he pressed for that order ? answers please !

    No answer merchants please troll away.

    Its done and dusted, clue is what boris said. Canna say more but the decision is from central politics. Local councillors are just that.
    Local councillors To help out with bin collections, ie minor issues.

    Its coming home !

    Big up your country, its coming home !”

    others wiull disagree inb annon

32. At last night’s presentation, Tony Freudman and Sally Dixon spent 45 minutes talking about electric barges and hydrogen powered aircraft.
    Now if they’d done a “proper” presentation, revealing a business plan, showing who the customers were, where the £300M was coming from and so on, I would have been a little concerned.
    But in the circumstances: no.

    • Open your mind fgs! First you lot moan about noise, fumes, pollution etc etc. Then someone talks about electrification and hydrogen power and you are still not happy!? Which is it, you dread the noise, pollution etc? Or do you think the airport is not financially sound? The two arguments do not support each other. You are obviously all about something else that needs the airport not to go ahead. Sad

      • There are zero prototype hydrogen barges capable of travelling on the open sea, doing a google search there seems to be none using any other power source. The prototypes are for inland waterways not the open sea. Are you sure Freudman knows where Ramsgate actually is located

33. Oh dear me! Cannot make head nor tail of your last one God Help Us. Can’t help agreeing with James above in that local council should just take care of bins, litter, doggy poo, public toilets etc etc. This is far too big a fish for them. I have never seen more double standards in one place for a long long time 😯. Closed meetings with counsellors? I seem to remember our dear old Chris Wells who was oh so pro airport …until he had a little soiree with Ann Gloag’s SHP cronies including that comical old copper who was brought in to try to intimidate us Thanetarians (what a hoot! 😂). He came back all changed obviously leant-on/incentivised shall we say lol😨😄! All for houses houses houses lol. The whole Manstom closure farce was a piss-take too far for Thanet. Quite obviously all about housing development (I use the term loosely). Only a fool cannot see it is vested interest in housing that is driving official opposition to the new Manston airport. Now who commissioned those farcical reports on viability ofvthe airport? Ever heard of the adage He Who Pays the piper Calls the Tune? 😉. Hopefully this whole ridiculous pantomime will soon be over and Manston will embark on a new chapter soon as a proper airport! Not a run-down old RAF base passed between a series of connected greedy speculators. Oh and by the way, didn’t it come out that a certain Quinn Estates (busy enhancing the garden of England in numerous places in our county!☹) had a delightful ‘New Town’ all drawn up for the airport. Now that reddened a few faces didn’t it lol 🥵

    • It is obvious you don’t get irony “Ever heard of the adage He Who Pays the piper Calls the Tune?” who paid for Sally Fictions report for RSP?
      As for the rest of your diatribe full of rumour and conspiracy I can see where the planespotters get their news. Echo, Echo

34. Oh no God Help Us, I am undone 😰 – by your razor sharp analysis and indisputable logic. Not to mention your comprehensive knowledge about this whole affair. Tatty-Bye 😘

35. I think the £100K raised locally to support the judicial review is a strong signal that people want Ramsgate to once again be a beautiful town where people come to ‘take the air’.
    Not a place where noise and pollution keep people away. The thriving staycation movement is bringing investment and employment to the town.
    It is almost as is if the supporters of a Manston freight hub want to keep Ramsgate downtrodden and poor.