By Rory Kehoe
An antique photograph surfaced recently, which eventually found its way to me, along with the question “Is this Kent?” Apart from a pencilled note on the back, helpfully just saying “Kent?” there were very few clues… Or were there?
I love a good historical rummage and though many untitled photographs sadly defy all attempts to work out who’s who, what’s what and where, this image turned out to have a little more to offer than some.
To the question, “Is this Kent” the answer was a straightforward and resounding “yes!” The main clue was the stone jar (far right) carrying the words “Tomson & Wotton Draught Ginger Beer” which suggested that the photograph had been taken in Thanet. Moreover, as I’d recently posted an Edwardian photograph of a very similar-looking pub on the Kent Pub History website, I made this my first port of call.
Bingo! Without doubt, this photograph was taken in Ramsgate, outside the Queen’s Head, which is situated on Harbour Parade. At the time this photograph was taken, a year or two before WWI, the Queen’s Head was one of about 50 licensed houses, which formed the tied estate of Tomson &Wotton’s Ramsgate Brewery. So far so good then.
The Queen’s Head dates back about 200 years but in the late Victorian era, the original pub found itself in the way of Ramsgate Borough Council’s plans to widen the road. This improvement work was eventually undertaken in 1906/07, with a newly-built Queen’s Head emerging, soon afterwards, as a larger and rather more classy establishment. Progress indeed!
Back to the photograph then. In shot, we now know that we have a happy group of visitors standing outside the Queen’s Head but who were they? One of the chaps has, somewhat unhelpfully, draped his arm over what had been written on the suitcase but it’s just possible to determine the words “…??..ds?? Merry Boys’ Ramsgate Outing…” Presumably, the missing word is the name of another pub, a club, or perhaps a company? Sadly, unless we get very lucky, we may never know.
At the back of the group, there are two ladies and a gentleman in a bowtie. Could these be the licensee, Robert Flower, his wife and a member of staff? Hard to be certain at this stage. As day visitors to Ramsgate, the Merry Boys might have travelled on a hired charabanc, or perhaps they arrived by train, as Ramsgate Harbour Station was located nearby. Before WWI, this was the terminus of the former Kent Coast Railway, which went on to form part of the much larger South Eastern & Chatham Railway network.
Given that we still have a bit of a mystery on our hands, I need your help. Do you recognise this old photograph? Maybe you have a copy, which has names written on the reverse? Perhaps your grandfather was one of the Merry Boys?
If you can provide any further background information, I’d be delighted to receive it, so please feel free to drop me a line.
If you have any old documents, photographs, signs, bottle labels, or other items relating to any of Kent’s old breweries and pubs, which could be scanned, copied, or even purchased, please drop me a line. As a local historian and collector, I’m always keen to expand my breadth of knowledge on the subject of Kent’s brewing heritage. Thank you. [email protected]
Aunty Betty’s. Betty ran it in the 70s. I wonder if anybody remembers her? And the fantastic boat locator map on the left hand wall. Great pub
Hi YF. I never knew the Queen’s Head in the 70s and was unaware of Aunt Betty. If you can remember her surname, I’ll update the licensee list on the Kent Pub History site. I wonder if anyone took internal shots of the QH in the 70s and captured an image of the boat locator? Hope so. Keep you eyes peeled and ask around please. Thanks. Rory
Second pub photo The Admiral Napier? (Corner of York St.) Demolished making way for the hotel.
Hi Chris, Thanks for your comments. Checking the late Victorian images of the Admiral Napier and Queen’s Head, there are some similarities and they were both Tomson & Wotton houses. Identifying the c.1895 image as the QH is made that bit easier, by the fact that the name is painted (twice!) over the windows. Looking at the c.1890 large scale OS map, it’s evident that some properties were demolished before the main road-widening took place. I’d love to see more images of this area in the mid/late Victorian era. Thanks again. Rory
At it again Rory where did the photo come from ‘your collection’ check all your facts again perhaps you may want to change a few things !
Good morning Terry/RHS. Thank you for getting in touch. This photo was sent to me by one of my many collector friends. It’s the third time I’ve seen the image but the first time I’ve reaserched it. As I pointed out in my article, I don’t currently have all the facts but if/when they come in, I will add to the story and/or correct anything which I’ve got wrong. Was there a specific fact you wanted me to address? Happy to change/amend/update things. Thanks again. Rory
Just spoken to the seller of the 1st Queens Head postcard –
Outside of eBay: Taking someone else’s product photo for your own external website, marketing, or commercial work is a violation of copyright. Original photographs belong to the person who took them, even if they picture a common item.
Risks of Stealing Images Copyright Infringement: The original creator owns the copyright to their photo the moment they snap it. They can issue a takedown notice or pursue legal action.
Hello again Terry.
I think you may be barking up the wrong tree! What has eBay got to do with this? The c.1913 Queen’s Head photo was sent to me by a collector friend. By their very nature, picture postcards were produced in their hundreds/thousands and if someone lists one on eBay, that does not confer upon the seller any form of copyright over the photograph. Given that this image is c.113 years old, the original copyright will have expired years ago. If the photographer was 40 when he took this picture and died aged 70, then his 70 years’ post mortem copyright will have expired c.2013 leaving the image in the public domain. I’m aware that some dealers/traders lift images from websites, enhance them and sell them via various platforms, including eBay. I don’t operate in this market. If the successors to the copyright can prove that this image is still covered by the 70 year rule (ie the photographer died later than 1956) then I’d be happy to acknowledge this. FYI. No attribution to the photographer appears on the front, or back of the postcard.
Interesting that you should mention eBay though. I’ve just looked up 1960s’ postcards (of which there are very many up for sale!) which must surely still be under copyright and none of the sellers appear to be bothered about this! No mention of potential copyright infringement is made by eBay either. Hope this addresses your points. Rory
The text above is from eBay as soon as the seller takes a photo that becomes the takers copyright unless you purchased the item, you have the item then? Aside from that your facts are incorrect perhaps you should research before seeking fame as in your last article on Ramsgate Bull & George and why should we correct what you obviously don’t care about. “I’m quite happy to change things” your sentiments – so you know most of it is made up. Trouble is people take all the cr## in, you think you can change history. Sad that a decent newspaper takes things face value without checking – fish n chip wrap tomorrow.
Interesting that after you rubbished this article on FB and I asked you to tell me what was wrong with, it you blocked me! Strange behaviour from an “expert” Terry. A bit of green-eye perhaps?
This article is excellent, hope to see more like it.
Thanks Peter. I’ve got a couple more pre-WW1 images, on which I’ll base future articles, sitting in the pipeline. Watch this space! Rory
Ramsgate Historical Society say to Rory ‘why should we correct what you obviously don’t care about’.
Well Ramsgate Historical Society, instead of focussing all your energy on Rory, why don’t you focus it on the townsfolk of Ramsgate instead, many of whom read this website. Please give us your corrections to Rory’s text. Or is your approach to history such that you would prefer me and all other interested locals to remain ignorant of the facts?
Hello LH. As you correctly point out, I care very much about our shared history and go to some lengths to winkle out the back story to images which come my way. I may be wrong but I’m not sure that RHS currently has any useful facts relating to the Merry Boys’ photo but there may be a member who reads my article and comes back with a positive contribution. I hope so. Meanwhile, thanks for your support. Rory
Good morning Terry/RHS. The facts? Here they are then. Not one word of the text of my article was lifted from eBay. That’s just about the last place I would go to historical information! The card belongs to a collector friend in Yorkshire, who asked me to verify if this was a photo taken in Kent. I have his permission (indeed ecouragement) to share this image and base an article on it. Over the years, I’ve seen 3 examples of this card, so I expect many more are around, which will appear in job lots at boot sales, card fairs etc. I made in very clear in my Merry Boys’ article, that there are some things I simply don’t know (Eg. Names of those in shot, the pub/club they were from) and invited readers to share any information they may have. I note that you have not deployed your great experience and profound knowledge in advancing what we know about the Merry Boys’ visit to the Queen’s Head. That’s a pity. Taking cheap potshots at me hardly ecourages anyone to take an intetest in our history, which I imagine is the cornerstone of Ramsgate Historical Society… isn’t it? Returning to the facts then. We have an old image, from which we can glean some background information but more would be very welcome. Thank you.
The Three Merry Boys was a pub in Cliffe, Kent.
Hi Bob. Thanks for getting in touch. Yes, there was indeed a pub called the Merry Boys in Cliffe and a few others in Kent (with similar names) besides, around 100 years ago. Whether these visitors to Ramsgate were from a pub called the Merry Boys, or styled themselves as the Merry Boys for the outing, I can’t yet say. I suspect the latter but can’t yet offer hard evidence. The jury is still out on this one! As soon as I have more information, I’ll update you. Thanks again. Rory
So interesting great to see history knowledge of th queens head over the years still a well run public house with nice entertainment and respect for the harbour why do negative people always criticise the findings this is a good story, better than the thig we have to deal with drunk drug idiots
Hi P. Thank you for your kind words. I’ve got a couple more pre-WW1 images, on which I’ll base future articles, sitting in the pipeline. Watch this space! Rory.
Well off piste , but was the only fools and horses “jolly boys outing” some how taken from the “merry boys” is so is there a london link?
Hi LV, Thanks for getting in touch. The truthful answer to your Q is “I don’t know!” No reason at all why a group of Londoners shouldn’t have hopped onto a coastbound train, disembarked at the old Ramsgate Harbour Station and popped into the Queen’s Head for a pint. I’ve seen the term “merry boys” used before, when describing a group of party-mood day-trippers. Who knows if John Sullivan came across a photo, or press article about some merry boys, which inspired him to write the Jolly Boys’ episode of OF&H? Rory
Tried so many times to post. Handbags down boys. Rory image you used is 100 per cent from eBay take a look sold item 236986287770 sold on 12th august with description Ramsgate Queens Head Pub Tomson and Wotton Beer photo postcard shadows and marks match 100 per cent. Done Google lens and said it was group 1913 so all information was online. Papers say Flower left in 1913 so Ramsgate Historical what do you say who are they though after the abuse here don’t think I would bother. Embellishing a story is not a crime but check where stuff comes from get it right papers say pub moved before 1905.
Sorry, I didn’t see your comment was stuck in moderation
Hello Simon. Thank you for your comments and points. To my certain knowledge, there are several examples of this postcard around and one was certainly listed/sold on eBay around a month ago. I agree, this image and the one I was sent is almost certainly from the same glass plate/negative and my suspicion is that the photograph, on which the postcard was based, was taken by one of the many seaside photographers that operated in the early 20th century. Kent Pub History, to which I am a regular contributor, has RJ Flower leaving the Queen’s Head in 1914, so the image date would appear to be OK for just before WW1. As you can imagine, KPH is routinely dipped into by eBay sellers, wanting to offer background details on cards/photos they’re listing. Amusingly, some of my KPH comments have been lifted verbatim before now but I don’t really mind: I’m occasionally credited! The rest, as you describe, could be referred to embellishment, in that general, or supporting contextual information helps make an article flow. So yes, the Tomson & Wotton references came from articles I previously written about their brewery and the Ramsgate Harbour Station information (which I knew anyway) I fact-checked via the SE & Chatham Railway Society. The exact date the new Queen’s Head opened isn’t, as far as I’m aware, known. It seems to have been late 1907 but I’ve also seen early 1908, which is why I was a little vague in my description. RJ Flower appears to have been granted his licence in November 1907 and though I can’t prove it, I would suggest the pub traded over Christmas/New Year. I mean, you would if you could, wouldn’t you? I have to conclude by agreeing with you, in that the internet has a lot of the information I used (but not all!) available. You could say much the same about the reference section of Ramsgate Library, which I occasionally visit. Loads of old Ramsgate images pop up at boot sales and postcard fairs but local history articles based on them don’t write themselves!