Manston: Surveys, flight paths, night flights, noise, museums, jobs and the Northern Grass

Manston airport site Photo Frank Leppard

Surveys for construction work at the Manston airport site begin this month with the aim of reaching final costings for building work and infrastructure improvements, say new owners RiverOak Strategic Partners.

Environmental studies will also take place, specifically looking at nesting and whether species such as bats may need relocating.

The work is to take place following the £16.5 million purchase of the site by RSP, who aim to create a cargo hub, aviation businesses and short haul passenger flights, from former landowners Stone Hill Park.

The deal was reached as a Development Consent Order application, made by RSP, reached the end of a fraught six month examination by the Planning Inspectorate.

The application was hotly contested by SHP, which had its own proposal for housing, business and infrastructure on the site. Opposition has also come from groups including No Night Flights which says night flights, noise and pollution will all impact on tourism and residents under the flight path.

Manston airport site Photo Paul Wells

But as the examination closed SHP and RSP clinched the sale, with SHP agreeing to withdraw its DCO and Local Plan submissions. Caveats on the sale will not be known until the Land Registry entry is published. SHP retains its contract, and payments, with the Department for Transport for use of the Manston site as a ‘Brexit’ lorry park and would be responsible for providing equipment if the site is used for the parking up of HGVs.

RSP director Tony Freudmann said tenders for the construction will take place next year, if the DCO is agreed, with work expected during 2021 and the start of 2022 leading up to the opening.

A consultation in Ramsgate and Herne Bay on changes to flight paths is also due to take place next year.

The buy out of the land means the compulsory purchase part of the DCO application for SHP’s holding – equating to around 98% of the site – is no longer necessary. However, there are still parcels of land belonging to the Ministry of Defence and other organisations and individuals. The site also borders the proposed Manston Green development. Issues have been raised over the siting of the MoD’s High Resolution Direction Finder aerials and whether a planned move may encroach on the Manston Green site.

Mr Freudmann says talks are ongoing about the ‘alternative site.’

Night flights

Campaign group No Night Flights says members will take a break until the Secretary of State makes a decision but insist “the fight is not over.”

Concerns include night flights. Mr Freudmann said: “ There will be no flights between 11pm and 6am other than emergency, relief and late arrivals. There will be no departures.

“If you have a Ryan Air flight in Majorca (See note at end of article) running two hours late, with staff who are living here and passengers, then you have to let it come to Manston. People need to get home and the plane needs to be here to be outbound for the morning. There’s no secret plan to bring planes in at night but if a plane is delayed you can’t tell them to divert, that’s just not acceptable. Look at Southend airport and you can see that it does not happen often but it does happen.”

But Anne Marie Nixey, from No Night Flights and Ramsgate Town Council, said: “There will be night flights, RSP want flights from 6am, legally that’s night flights. Even the examining authority said there was not a night flight ban.

“Late arrivals are not in the ATM (air traffic movement) allocation or the night quota so they come under the radar. Infratil (previous airport operators) had 15%-20%  of planes as late arrivals every night.”

Noise compensation

Compensation for residents affected by noise has also been under the spotlight. RSP is offering  up to £10,000 for noise insulation for those that fall in the 63 decibel contour, affecting around 275 homes.

MAFNIC noise calculations

Cllr Nixey and the NNF campaign say this level is not adequate and compensation should be paid for homes in the 57db contour, as is the case for London City Airport and Heathrow. Contour maps paid for by NNF show this would take in some  6,500 properties.

Mr Freudmann says the level is based on government guidance but Cllr Nixey says it is “playing with figures.”

She added: “We need to demystify this idea that it is houses vs airport. It’s not, it is people’s lives that are going to be ruined.

“RSP own the site and people assume they are getting an airport back but it does not yet have the planning permission and is yet to resolve issues with the MoD, Kent County Council and Cogent (Manston Green developers).”

Investment

Mr Freudmann says RSP is reasonably confident, but not complacent, that the DCO will be granted. He said no plans have as yet been made for if the bid fails.

He added: “We have already invested more than £34million. The airport will be £300-400 million to develop. We have made a huge investment in this and have a number of potential investors who will be funding us long term.

“Easy Jet and Ryan Air have said to us they know where Manston is and if we can give early morning flights that is of great interest to them.

“The core business will be cargo but there could be passenger flights. That means inbound passengers to east Kent.”

Ryan Air has since announced some 900 job cuts.

Museums and Northern Grass

Mr Freudmann said fears over the future of the two Manston museums would be allayed by the gifting of freeholds on larger sites by the Northern Grass

Questions have been raised over the future of the Northern Grass and whether it is earmarked for residential development.

Mr Freudmann said the site will be used for airport related development such as warehousing and offices, border control and catering.

Jobs

Job figures have also come under scrutiny. RSP say the air field will create 9,568 local jobs by year 20 of operation – 3,417 direct jobs and 6,151 indirect and ‘induced’ jobs.

No Night Flights say this is “extremely unlikely” adding “as it’s a state of the art 24/7 cargo hub they are planning then most of their operations will undoubtedly be automated.”

The 90 minute commute definition has been highly criticised as being far from local and not providing Thanet jobs.

Mr Freudmann said: “90 minutes is the statutory definition. We are looking at local employment in east Kent.”

A decision on the DCO is expected to be made by January 9,2020. If given the green light RSP say they expect the airport to be operational in Spring 2022 with short haul and cargo flights.

*A transcript of this interview had New York as the late running example flight. We are informed that Mr Freudmann said Majorca. Apologies for the confusion.

142 Comments

  1. People living near should accept that the airport was there long befor they moved there so they should stop moaning about it or move!

    • There is no airport at Manston. There hasn’t been one there for 6 years. And when there was,it was a half-baked affair (and that was annoying enough). Nothing like the huge operation Mr Freudmann and his mates envisage – something along the lines of East Midlands.
      So what I say to you, “Richard” is if you miss the sound of 100db jets screaming over your head day and night, why don’t you move?

      • That’s not nice Andrew. But understandable, as that’s what airport supporters have been saying for years (you forgot to add “bye”) to people who don’t agree with them.

        • Let’s assume that Manston does re-open..there will always be haters,no matter what.
          But the question ive always asked to the antis,is… let’s again assume that the airport introduces passenger flights, are u still prepared to travel to Heathrow or Gatwick???
          You complain about noise etc,but a bit of noise is far better than more traffic and houses,in an area where the road networks are already at full capacity

          • I don’t know what a “hater” is with regards to an airport, could you please give a definition? Thank you. You are a pro, I assume?

    • Many folks who sent in their twopennorth to the examination stated that they hated the noise.
      The USAF moved to Lincolnshire because of a petition raised in Ramsgate in 1958 complaining about the noise.
      Richard should try and understand that when you start believing your on lies it’s time to move aside for those whose opinion really matters.

    • Seems both companies Mr Fraudman says he will lure to Manston are in trouble Ryanair are laying people off and easyJet are reporting loses of £279m. So unless they want to lose even more money I doubt they will ever come to Manston

  2. How many minutes a day will the noise of aircraft landing and taking off actually be audible above road traffic, seagulls, etc. ? Not many, I am sure.

    It will be a great boost for Thanet with jobs and hopefully tourism. I have flown internationally from Manston (rather than travel to Heathrow and Gatwick) and hope to do so again.

    We do not need more houses, thank you. We do not need the population increasing further.

    If we stop building more houses – perhaps it will stop more people trying to come here from Iran and Iraq. There’s a controversial comment that should provoke some views . . .

    Manston is just like Brexit – the sooner it is done the better ! It has been talked about and debated for far too long – just get on with it !

    • If you actually knew what was going in you would know that the houses are coming anyway. Have a look at the local plan currently being written. It’s not houses or airport it’s houses AND airport if RSP get their way.

  3. “How many minutes a day will the noise of aircraft landing and taking off actually be audible above road traffic, seagulls, etc. ? Not many, I am sure.”
    How many time a night is it acceptable to be woken up by aircraft noise?
    6? 7?
    8 is what RSP is planning for. RSP have asked for unlimited arrivals between 23:00 and 06:00, and vast numbers of departures between 06:00 and 07:00.
    And, for the 94,000,000,000,000th time – we get the houses anyway, with or without an airport.
    Jobs? What jobs? Considered opinion is that were Manston to be reopened as an airport, it might, just might, get back to the position where it was when it closed (ie losing £10,000 a day) with about 140 employees (fewer than the ‘Spoons in Ramsgate).
    But basically, what’s changed, since Falcon, Davies, Avia and Altitude Aviation all said that commercial aviation at Manston was unlikely to be a success?
    Manston is still at the edge of the UK, in the bottom corner of Kent. No new motorways have been built. There is no high speed rail connection between Manston and the rest of the UK.
    And no-one (least of all RSP) knows where the £100Ms is coming from.
    Oh! One change – Heathrow R3 will happen, cutting the need for any further airport development anywhere in the uk for decades to come.

    It’s a no-brainer.

    Invest £300,000,000 – £400,000,000 in an aviation project that in the long term is unlikely to generate any returns on capital investment; or invest a substantially smaller sum on housing, that will realise a vastly larger return in just a few years.
    Which would you choose?

    Is this the Tony Freudmann, the struck-off solicitor, speaking?
    The bloke who embezelled his clients’ funds?
    The chap who’s overseen the collapse of many airport development schemes the length and breadth of Europe and beyond?
    The same chap that was associated with the Travel Club of Upminster when it went bust?
    The MD at Wiggins (previous owners of Manston) when it went bust, and he was “let go”
    Would you buy a used car from Mr Freudmann?

    • Spot on Tony

      I am just a normal bloke it is as plain as the nose on my face that manston is in the wrong place for an airport. Even I can see it doesnt make sense to land my goods in the bottom right hand corner of England. Than load up my HGV to drive along two lane dual carriageway and two lane motorway to get to the dreaded M25. Manston would need to under cut Midland Airport by 1000’s of pounds per landing for me to given think about moving my operation from the middle of the country. The extra costs in moving goods from manston would be enormous. Can you imagine how useless the M2 would be it just about copes with the HGV’s from dover docks ! Now manston airport wants to double / triple the amount of HGV’s on the M2 lol.And that’s HGV’s coming and going from manston the place would be gridlocked.

      Even if manston did reopen it would be bust within a few years no haulage company could afford to have its HGV’s stuck on the M2 losing 1000’s of pounds.

      What this country really needs is places for people to live .

        • I’m confused. There is no Stonehill Park train station. And even if there were, it would convey passengers, not freight.
          And it would be as far away from the airport as Ramsgate station currently is. So not much point.

          • A freight yard at Manston Parkway isn’t written into the design
            Maybe RSP ought to chat to KCC as it is their project

      • …. unless you consider the ‘free port’ considerations for Dover post Brexit. There is a good chance that what was the old Kent Coalfield Development Area will be the basis of the Free Port, in which case Manston (and possibly Southampton Herne) will be the only UK Free Port – Airports.

        • It’d be so much simpler and cheaper to stay in the EU and let our MEPs do their best to bring about any improvements that are necessary .

  4. A record to be afraid of
    Odense, Denmark – 2000
    Pilsen, Czech Republic – 2000
    Lahr Airport twice
    Schwerin Parkim, Northern Germany
    Cuneo, Levaldigi, Italy
    Ajman, UAE
    Borgond (Alba), Hungary
    Smyrna, USA
    Melbourne, Florida USA
    All of the above were former or existing military bases, targeted because “ideal airports are former military bases with ample availability of surrounding land which can be developed using the real estate experience of Wiggins
    Now oddly the same applies to the acquisition of Manston again and the same person is in charge of airport plans

  5. Why do people always moan about something in thanet. The people how brought Manston trying get thanet ramsgate ect back on the map. With work ect. Manston been there for many years. So get off your High horse and think of the future for the young people for work

    • In this case people are moaning because of the threat of a huge 24×7 cargo hub operation, equivalent in size to East Midlands Airport, and all the noise and environmental damage that will bring. And for little benefit to the people of Thanet.
      It is a fact that since the airport closed, unemployment in Thanet has fallen, and tourism income has gone up.
      Before you wish the airport on us, be very sure of the consequences.

  6. Yet still there are no major airlines or freight carriers backing up the DCO plans…. where is the business going to come from?

    • When York Aviation carried out an analysis of RSP’s plans (as detailed by Dr Dixon of Azimuth Aviation) they pointed out that of the several air freight haulers mentioned by Dr Dixon, several had gone out of business, several had withdrawn from the dedicated air freight industry and one didn’t have any dealings in Europe.
      Where, indeed, will the business come from?
      Belize? British Virgin Islands? Same ad the mystery investors.
      Mr Freudmann makes reference to a “statutory” 90 minutes travel time (I guess he’s trying to give a definition of “Local”). I don’t believe there is such a statutory definition. It’s the same as when TF claimed night flights had to be put in the DCO because the Planning Inspectorate required it.
      He lied.
      Any way, a 90-minute commute from Manston would get you to Maidstone, Chatham, Bromley and on to London Bridge.
      Hardly jobs for the locals.

  7. Just a thought? When Manston Airport is up & running again, will the same people who are complaining about the noise & pollution, still travel all the way to Gatwick, Heathrow. Stansted’s or Luton to catch their holiday flights? I used to live in Sevenscore, right next to the airport & apart from the occasional noisy ,LuxAir cargo plane the noise was pretty minimal. At least they are not knocking down the villages, as they will be when they build the 3rd runway at Hesthrow. I do sympathise, but as I’m constantly reminded, this is the 21st Century & we must progress. Thank you.

    • This particular objector to noise and pollution cause by aviation never flies.Hasn’t been on a plane since 1981 or 1981. Yes,this is the 21st century and we should now be progressing away from flying on holiday.

      RSP’s alleged plans are for a 24/7 cargo hub airport.

    • If the airport returns to aviation (And there’s plenty of reasons why it won’t) then nobody will be taking their holiday flights, because it will be a cargo hub (do try to keep up).
      When it was running (Well, staggering), far too few people chose to fly from it. That’s why it was losing £10,000 a day and accumulated losses of £100M in the few years it was open.
      What’s changed?

    • Yes. Because it will be -their own words- some short haul passenger flights-so like previously only anygood if you want to go to the handful of destination s on offer

      Question is. Where are 3000 jobs coming from. I fly from Douthend and talking to staff there’s only about 500 there

  8. It’s funny people who want an airport at manston never comment on the points that to me are so obvious

    A few questions to the save manston people

    Q1 how are you going to solve the gridlocked on the M2 etc.
    Q2 are you seriously going to bring aviation fuel in by tanker for every single plane.
    Q3 why do you think all the air crews are going to live or stay in thanet
    Q4 why are haulage companies going to move from central england to the bottom right hand corner of england with all that extra haulage costs.
    Q5 why would any air cargo company want to be based here
    Q6 with all these extra HGV bring in and taking away cargo and aircraft fuel, it’s going to make getting to manston a longer journey for anyone using it for passenger planes.

    Just a few questions that never get answered on here plus I dont think there are many ex airport workers living in thanet to fill the jobs, I guess a few local aircraft companies might lose a few staff to manston. But I would guess most employees would be from outside the area perhaps workers moving from Gatwick, Heathrow etc to work and live by the sea…..

      • Yes Martin Taylor-Smith but manston isn’t on it.

        Rereading though here it seems some of my questions have been answered, manston is getting a railway yard and being connected to the rail network. Plus manston is being connected to the National fuel line. That’s good because I haven’t read that anywhere so how do these people know this ?

  9. I am now fed up with the airport moaners.

    Lets make them happy by building 5,000 houses on contaminated land and fill them up with refugees from Syria, Iran and Iraq.

    • Not moaners- criticizers of an alleged plan for something which would cause endless noise and pollution to Ramsgate (pop. 40,000) and its environs. The residents of Herne Bay would also suffer.

      • For one, Manston has had underground tanks there for a long time, that can be filled at night when roads are at their quietest also most airliners in today’s world don’t always require fueling before every single take off. Also Air Crews staying locally will make more jobs for local hotels and BnB’s, also Cargo Company’s will have easier reach to get goods to this end of the country as large amounts are flown into Northern airports (which by the way is more damaging to the Environment) and then driven down the country to the south so again less airtime = less damage to the environment, also most duel use airports have separate rooting for vehicles and trucks, usually Passengers are sent the more direct route to allow them to have less trouble finding the airport whereas trucks are diverted on to longer routes that ease the flow of the traffic.

        Finally, I am someone that comes from a much younger generation then most I see bickering about Manston and I want to have more Jobs in Kent for my generation, I feel a lot of the time that the older generations don’t want any sort of change and want to leave kent as a drab, area that has no appeal other than those that want to come and look at relics of the past, when most other areas are moving on and keeping there names relevant.

        • WE should be moving away from aviation and the private car. The environment is so degraded that it is almost irreparable. It is extraordinary that those who support the vastly enlarged reincarnation of Manston airport don’t seem aware of this.

        • Some interesting points, James.

          Indeed, Manston has underground storage tanks. But nevertheless, many tankers a day will be required every day to keep these tanks filled, if RSP’s aspirations reach fruition. Part of RSP’s income stream depends upon planes filling up at Manston. Proper airports are connected to a UK wide pipeline network.
          A cargo aircraft has a crew of 2. They’re not exactly going to overburden Thanet’s B&Bs. However, guests at our hotels (such as the Albion House in Ramsgate) will vote with their feet if they’re woken up hour after hour, night after night by “late running” flights.
          Almost all air cargo is flown in the bellyhold of passenger aircraft. As such, it doesn’t add to the environmental damage that passenger aircraft already inflict. Heathrow, because it handles so many PAX aircraft, also handles a vast amount of freight. Heathrow is right next to the M25, and handily situated to feed into the urban sprawl of the south east. A vast majority of dedicated cargo flights go to East Midlands airport, because it is a hub, in the centre of England. It is next to the M1, near the M6, handy for the A14 trunk road to Felixtowe. Near by is a huge new rail freight depot. Wincanton, Stobart.
          Finally, you have no idea about the ages of the people posting on here. As for jobs, the opening of the ‘Spoons in Ramsgate created more jobs at a stroke than Manston ever had.
          As for relics of the past: just look at the number of posters who refer to the past times (over a hundred years ago) when the first military aviation facilities were installed here.
          Indeed, we need to “move[…] on and keeping there (sic) names relevant.”

  10. so moaning is asking questions !!

    so no answers to any of the points I raised just class me as a moaner.

    ok I am all for an airport I am looking forward to all roads in and out of thanet being blocked by HGV and Fuel Tankers. I am looking forward to dirty planes flying over head every 15 mins. I looking forward to breathing in all their polluting fumes. I am looking forward to getting a well paid job at the airport. I am looking forward to flying of on lots of holidays that I cant afford to do at present. See not moaning I have seen the light ! now cant wait for the airport to open and improve all of our lives with lots of well paid jobs lots of noise and pollution and being gridlocked on the M2/thanet way. Much better than building homes for local people.

  11. How many moaning people travel to Gatwick,Stansted,Southend etc for their annual holiday bet they don’t care about the people living in those places.think how much you’d save on fuel & car park charges as it’s on doorstep also think of jobs created.like previously put noise dosent take that long a time .

    • At least one of us (not that I moan; I criticize) doesn’t fly anywhere, doesn’t have a car, doesn’t live with anyone who has a car. Don’t suppose I’m the only one- there seem to be a lot of ads for flight-free holidays nowadays.

  12. Well well well, old confused says ‘ this country needs places for people to live’ as his reason not to reopen Manston as an airport. What an absolute hypocrite you are, you and your environmentalist friends have stopped a housing development in Clifftonville for fear of disturbing the birds bats and slow worm. You’ve proved to me what I was sure of, your a complete and utter Pratt. Don’t take any notice of his comments folks, he’ll do his best to stop anything that might help the people of Thanet.

    • ‘Seen it all before’

      I don’t remember saying I was an environmentalist, I don’t remember saying what I was you just assume I am an UTTER PRATT.The thing is when someones starts name calling its normal because they don’t have the educational ability to conduct a discussion, as seen by you ! I might be a businessperson.
      All I did was ask people like you some questions to which you are unable or unwilling to answer, thus you call me an UTTER PRATT. I think that the main roads to thanet are not capable of handling all the HGVs, to bring all the services and cargo in and out of manston my road seems mad. Ita a question

      so ‘Seen it all before’ instead of name calling like a school yard bully trying answer my points/questions I have asked

      • ‘Seen it all Before’

        for all i know ‘seen it allbefore’ you might know that manston is going to attached to the main aviation fuel line. you might know that the thanet way and M2 are going to be made 3 lane. you might know that manston will be offering big discounts for freight hauliers to use manston. please tell us what you know

  13. Wow suddenly everyone is an expert, shame you did not look closer when buying your home near an airport. Estate agents locally are awaiting your custom,there are many who would by the same house knowing there is an airport near. can hear london folk crying UFM. Yay! Manston Airport is coming back.

    • what airport hasn’t been one for years ! there is a huge difference moving into an area with a working airport and an area with a redundant airport !! who says I have moved to the area might be born here

      • Hey ho. Here we go.
        Those opposing an airport put forward cogent arguments, based on facts and logically prosecuted, using the Queens English.
        Those in favour of an airport, having no argument, resort to abuse and name calling. Usually in some sort of pigeon English.

    • The experts are organisations such as Falcon and York Aviation and Avia , and people such as Louise Congdon And Howard Davies.
      Who are the experts supporting a return to aviation at Manston?

  14. no confused, your a hypocrite and I refer others to what I said about your efforts to halt a housing development in Clifftonville, yet here you are trying to stop Manston reopening because you say we need more houses. You a businessman? God help us. Marva lets see if confused is female, I very much doubt it, most females have a common sense view of things that might be good for others!

    • There’s a big difference between A) wanting a developer to conform to planning regulations re trees and wildlife, and B) wanting to stop a proposed development completely.

      Also, I don’t see that Confused, who certainly wants A, is a hypocrite for also objecting to B,the development of a brand-new noisy and polluting cargo hub airport at the site of a previous, very much smaller passenger airport.

    • Now I am really confused as I have never commented on the cliftonville building at northdown park road so I await your apology

    • I dont know why you feel the need to know my sex when you cant even get my name right I am ‘confused’ and have never commented on the building site on northdown park rd. I suggest that before you go of on your next rent you get your facts right ‘Seen it all before’. You are making yourself sound silly by not reading things properly. Please be so kind to apologise to me for your mistaken identity.

  15. Concerns include night flights. Mr Freudmann said: “ There will be no flights between 11pm and 6am other than emergency, relief and late arrivals. There will be no departures.
    “If you have a Ryan Air flight in New York running two hours late, with staff who are living here and passengers, then you have to let it come to Manston. People need to get home and the plane needs to be here to be outbound for the morning. There’s no secret plan to bring planes in at night but if a plane is delayed you can’t tell them to divert, that’s just not acceptable. Look at Southend airport and you can see that it does not happen often but it does happen.”
    Since when did Ryanair fly to NY?

    • Those comments about a Ryan Air flight being late and crew needing to get home here so the plane can be ready to fly out is absolute nonsense. Why would flight crew live here when their flights are from other airports? Ryan Air has never expressed any interest in flying from here anyway and that ignores the fact Michael O’Leary is cutting flights and jobs.

  16. Hilarious. The Smaa lot are laughing at NNF for saying that Ryanair fly to New York when it was their beloved Mr Freudman who made that comment. They really need to read the article again.

    • Oh dear, Smaa have now deleted their comment ridiculing NNF. Next time read the article properly. you make yourselves look really stupid.

  17. Well, just a gentle reminder folk’s, the land where Nethercourt EST sits on, was once many yrs ago apart of Manston, obviously sold for housing. So it baffles me why would people in this area along with the Southward area of Ramsgate, plus other parts of Thanet & beyond want to moan about noisey aircraft taking off / descending at unearthly hrs. Can fully understand locals in general voicing their opinions re; Manston, but come on the Airport was here long before a lot of the housing was ever built. As for RSP’s plans, I say bring it on.

  18. The old airport site should be reforested and returned to the state it was in when theRomans turned up with their paved roads and underfloor heating and other fancy stuff, including sycamores and figs..

  19. One other thing. Riveroak is a property development company. They can’t and won’t ever do airports. They are just pretending because they want the land.

  20. Andrew – Hollins aka ‘Purple Om'(a long-standing Manston-moaner) and God Help Us – Lorraine Caldwell. You both think bullying abuse will put people off supporting the forthcoming airport. You are both wrong, and in fact your behaviour feeds and supports resolution among supporters to see aviation returning to Manston as it rightly should. Get a life the pair of you lol

    • You seem to be confusing the asking of pertinent questions and the quoting of relevant facts on the one hand with bullying on the other.
      Would you mind giving an example or two of where bullying by an airport opposer has actually taken place?

      BTW I can confirm that I am neither Andrew Hollins, nor Purple Om, nor Lorraine Caldwell.

    • “Move away”, “get out and live a bit”, “get a life the pair of you lol” – sounds to me as if it’s airport supporters doing the insulting and bullying.

    • Oh dear Leif you really need to get your facts right. Accusing people of being a certain anti without any proof. Just pure guessing. Accusing them of being bullies when I have personally seen so much nasty, vile comments from the Pro side, threatning an anti with a baseball bat and punching them in the face if they ever came face to face. Yes Leif all this from Pro supporters. Now if I wanted to guess I would say you are Mr Toy but as I have no proof it would be pure guess work as Nick Toy has accussed Lorraine Caldwell of being, ‘God Help Us’. Hilarious!

  21. It is tedious to read the same old same old ‘move’ comments because of some relentless anti housing plane spotters. Nobody can make it work commercially, certainly not the same incompetent group as before, what part of that did people miss?

    The USAF bolted, and there is no comparison between the old operation and the proposed new one. One was limited flight volumes with 30% of arrivals running mysteriously late, i.e. they landed at night. KLM flights were half full until they realised it was a money pit and ceased operations. The current application wants Manston bigger than East Midlands cargo zone. Why would anyone enjoy the ruination of Ramsgate and our tourist economy? I don’t read any comments from the job hunters who many profess to be overly interested in their working status for some reason.

    Why is there this pipedream obsession? The jobs ruse is fake, RSP making up absurd numbers and now it’s a supposed 9,000 by year 20. Sure. And I’m the Queen of Sheba.

    The debate is always peppered with insular anti outsider offensive rhetoric which has no place in a modern dialogue. It is also peppered with anti migration content from many in the pro camp. What exactly has asylum got to do with a cargo hub? Nothing.

    The Manston debate is to the detriment of Thanet and has stopped it moving forwards for many years. Read the application, face the facts, this application is an insult to Ramsgate.

    It isn’t political, it isn’t a replica Brexit, it isn’t local versus newbie. What it is is a load of made up numbers supported by a vocal minority.

    When the debate focuses on the evidence, there is no shred of supporting content which supports the actual application plan unless someone can show us where this content is?

    All I read is a company ‘preparing to take off’ from a spot with no permission to do so that is a Brexit car park for years to come, and who think Ryan Air fly from NYC. The same Ryan Air who have expressed zero interest in coming here and who are laying off hundreds of staff.

    Who believes this stuff?

  22. Emmeline very good post, but reading though pro people seem to know that a railyard/station is being built and connected to the rail network from manston. Plus manston is also being connected to the National fuel supply. I have seen these points in writing anywhere so it would be good if the pro manston airport people could post links to these claims

  23. This is the same Tony Freudman who said at the first meeting held at Conyigham school 20 years ago “there will be no night flights because my air traffic controllers finish at 2000hrs” After that we had planes arriving and taking off at all hours in the night, these were unscheduled and the same thing will happen again because when it comes to making money they will do anything to survive. When the supporters say manston has been there 100 years that’s correct but they do not say that from single engine tiny wood and canvas planes we now have monsters pumping out poisonous particulates that are extremely harm- full to our health plus unbearable noise. I have lived in Ramsgate all my life and bought my house when the RAF who had more regard for residents ran it, no problems until it was taken over by private operators, failed three times with the same guy that intends to have another go now, If he thinks 40 thousand residents are going to roll over and let him do as he likes think again.

  24. Same old moaners same old moans! Either the airport is going to fail as it’s failed before blah blah, or it will devastate the place with noise, pollution etc etc. WHICH IS IT??? YOU all just rattle on and on because you love the sound of your own voices and think we are too stupid to see the fundamental contradiction in your senseless arguments! My advice: Just get in some of those aircraft coming to Manston, see the world, get your heads out of the same old mire they are stuck in here. You guys just don’t get out enough 😨😵😵😵

    • There is no contradiction.
      For example: it doesn’t look like rain, but if it does, we’ll get wet.
      Thus:
      There’s not likely to be an airport, but if there is, we’ll be woken several times a night.
      See?
      Simple, eh?

  25. But if you are so certain it will fail Andrew, why have you expended so much time and energy getting your knickers into the mother of all twists over it?? Why don’t you just leave it to it and do something else? People like you have an unhealthy obsession

  26. These anti-airport people have a rather inflated idea of themselves. The USAF ‘bolted’?? Who from? A bunch of moaning-minies? Whingeing put before western security? That’s a good one lol!! You couldn’t make this up, mind you anti-Manston moaners are making up this rubbish. Like the mythical anti airport thousands just waiting to rise up in protest at the airport. Well, if they are there they really are waiting for the last possible moment lol! The truth is the majority of the island want the airport, for some opportunities and a chance for this place to amount to something in the country (and the world). The non-stop whiners actually think anyone will take serious notice of them? – People who are looking for a decent job? – A consortium of companies looking to make serious profit? A few sour-faced miseries won’t make much difference sorry

    • If there is an article about something which- if it happened -would make life considerably worse for me, I’m going to comment on it. A brief comment only takes a moment. Reading and commenting here takes up a very small proportion of my time. (I’m not Andrew.)

    • maybe Jack you ought to do some research before typing comments that make you look stupid. A book was written on the 8 years the USAF were at Manston. Get yourself a copy and actually learn about the facts.

  27. Arthur is yet another of the polite and reasonable airport supporters: “You guys just don’t get out enough”. We’re not all guys, actually. And it’s not because we don’t go out enough that we don’t want to live near a bloody great airport. It’s because, on the many occasions when most of us do go out, we don’t want to hear the noise of low-flying aircraft or breathe in pollution caused by planes flying to or from Manston.

  28. Ronald Blay. They flew Handley Page 0/100, 0/400 and V1500 from Manston in 1918-19 and Vickers Virginia in the ’20s and ’30s…hardly very ‘tiny single engine wood and canvas’ aircraft. Look them up 😉

  29. Failed three times, wrong place, 1000db, ruin tourism, houses built on open spaces …rewind, repeat! Stuck record. Same old worn out refuted rubbish. You people are so predictable (and boring! 😴😴😴)

    • But these facts are correct . And people who want an airport at Manston simply ignore them.

      Being insulted by airport supporters,irritating though it is, is also predictable and boring.

  30. Why are the pro manston supporters so rude ? I have been called a moaner, utter pratt and even some else!!! All I do is ask questions that the pro manston supporters choice to ignore and just name call instead.

    PS ‘Seen it all before’ still waiting your apology for confusing me with someone else !

  31. I think in answer to your question Confusedo, some people get angry about some people seeming to oppose Thanet trying to lift itself out of its depressed state. Many struggle with low paying jobs and resent retired people objecting to creation of more than dead-end jobs, or wealthy commuters objecting to opportunity for local people. I think they see selfishness, indifference and short-sightedness

  32. “Violence is the repartee of the inarticulate”, said Aristotle. Or possibly Plato.
    The point being that pro airport people are so rude because they don’t actually have an argument to make, so they resort to verbal violence instead.
    If you look at the postings on here, of the offerings by airport supporters, very very few actually try to make a point. The vast majority just hurl abuse at other posters.

  33. Violence begets violence maybe Tony. Airport opposers have been very aggressive towards supporters throughout this business. In fact unpleasantness has characterised their approach at all levels. On the petty level, trolling on line, abuse pages set up on Facebook aimed at individuals. On a more significant level you have the former owners bringing in a bully-boy Mr. Mallon to try to scare them away. That was never going to work. So I think by now they are tired of and quite angry at the airport opposition

    • never heard that those who believe their lives being blighted by a cargo hub have ever threatened the use of baseball bats.
      There is also a video of one airport supporter being manhandled out of a meeting by other airport supporters. Talk about blue on blue

  34. Errr hello – just one small thing. Riveroak are a company that develops property. Do any of the pros worry about that at all?

  35. Err hello Ed – I wouldn’t worry. The National Inspectorate of Planning and Bircham Dyson Bell solicitors will see to that – If RSP are being cads and bounders, trying to pull a fast one past us! 😉

    • They are pulling a fast one – as we will soon find out.
      That’s why it doesn’t matter that none of the case presented to the planning inspectorate stacks up or that the airport is certain to fail. There is only money in houses and nothing in it as an airport. You just have to read a bit.

  36. Maybe you’re in the wrong job Ed. You have such penetrative perception of what is uncontravertable truth …you ought to be at least a leading QC. You have seen what others of great experience seem to have missed

  37. But they haven’t. You just need to not be taken in by Tony Freudmann who was struck off as a solicitor for stealing his clients money. Tony Freudmann who has only ever turned airports into real estate and RSP who are a real estate company. I think it’s fair to assume that Manston might not be the place to do anything different. It has failed every time it has been opened as an airport and now doesn’t have a single operator interested in flying from it (unless you have heard anything to the contrary). Or perhaps Tony Freudmann told you it has Ryanair and Easy Jet lined up – which it hasn’t.

  38. Pull the other one Ed. I’m sure the inspectorate would rumble him. I think in your case it’s just a bit of wishful thinking – your wishes but certainly not mine nor much of Thanet’s

    • I think the ExA has rumbled him. Throughout the duration of the Examination process, the ExA was asking RSP to show where the money was, and who’d got it.
      RSP failed to come up with any tangible answers.

    • Bruce once the DCO is awarded (let us hope the SoS isn’t taken in) it no longer becomes their responsibility rather that is passed back to TDC which currently is a Tory administration
      They have 5 years they can sit on the land

  39. It’s quite simple, really, when all is said and done.
    RSP still don’t have any money. They hope to attract investors once they’ve got the DCO.
    Now, all the experts say that aviation won’t make commercial sense at Manston. Even if £100Ms is flung at it, it is extremely unlikely to make any sort of return on investment, let along a nice little earner.
    On the other hand, building houses will in quite short order show a huge return on any capital outlay.
    Go figure. Where would you put your money?

  40. Ok I’m just asking you to look at the facts. I also ask you to think about the level of deceit involved in stealing from your clients. You are in a position of trust and you lie to your clients but you also lie to your friends and colleagues.Therefore, before you put all your faith in him it may be worth entertaining the idea that he could be lying to you.

    As for what most of what Thanet wants – Thanet may only want it because of what it is told it will deliver by people who want to make money for themselves rather than what it actually will.

    As I say it’s only a matter of time before you find out for yourself.

  41. Oh well gentlemen we will see. You two seem empty vessels to me. A lot to say but no substance – and well removed from what is really happening 😉

  42. For those that ignore past performance at their peril
    A record to be afraid of
    Odense, Denmark – 2000
    Pilsen, Czech Republic – 2000
    Lahr Airport twice
    Schwerin Parkim, Northern Germany
    Cuneo, Levaldigi, Italy
    Ajman, UAE
    Borgond (Alba), Hungary
    Smyrna, USA
    Melbourne, Florida USA
    All of the above were former or existing military bases, targeted because “ideal airports are former military bases with ample availability of surrounding land which can be developed using the real estate experience of Wiggins
    Now oddly the same applies to the acquisition of Manston again and the same person is in charge of airport plans

  43. In the end what we believe often relates to what we want. Are there any people who want an airport but believe the anti rhetoric? And vice-versa? There are no ‘facts’ to exclude the prospect of the airport at Manston – only firmly held opinions and assumptions. Old Mr. Freudman comes 8n for a lot of flak, but the airport opposers choose to ignore the murky iniquities of Ann Gloag and her previous record regarding communities she has blighted in many peoples’ views. There is also Mr. Mallon, a disgraced former policeman with a very shady record. Did any of the airport opposers stop to consider what welcoming such entities into our community and economy might mean? It seems everyone is regarded as good or bad as they might fit in with what you personally want to see here. Also – the old no money argument is embarrassing! All it displays is ignorance of how modern business and investment ventures function. RSP seem to have invested a few million already – so that (really very silly) argument is dead and gone

  44. What I say makes your argument completely unconvincing Andrew, and you are a perfect illustration. For years you have complained and campaigned against the airport before it even was closed. You are simply now making up a story to suit your aims and desires – twisting and presenting opinions accordingly. It is not so surprising that the people ripping into RSP now are the same old names from the long-standing Manston complainers

  45. Perhaps Niall Lawlor is a sort of hero in the eyes of RSP’s supporters, and they are trying to emulate his appalling rudeness but without the swearwords.

  46. Marva Rees. I know people who have been seriously abused by anti-airport campaigners. Called plane-spotters, even anoraks, also plane-crazy and much worse. The sheer aggression has been infuriating at times. A while back I saw a mock-Facebook page called SMAaaaaaa (presumably to mock SMAa) and it comprised only of abuse aimed at named individuals. Foul language sewer memtality – it was shocking! It was all deeply pathetic stuff as it was just keyboard trolling. Pro-housing people can be pretty nasty now also. They don’t like opposition from anyone two-legged, four-legged, bare-skinned, furred or feathered. They are merrily ripping up trees and hedges throughout the nesting season and getting quite shirty with anyone who criticises 😕

    • By “pro-housing people” I assume you mean property developers. I wouldn’t say plane-spotters” was much of an insult. As I’m not on Facebook I wouldn’t know what it’s like. Please don’t generalize about people who accept that there is a need for more housing in Thanet. I am one of those people, and I am also, I suppose, an environmentalist. The two things are not necessarily incompatible. But while councils have too little money to buy empty property in town centres, most new housing will be built by property developers and of course their main concern is making money.

      Your last two sentences are clearly incorrect.

    • Jim you ever considered that silly page was set up by Manston supporters? Goebbels was good at propaganda.
      Seems Manston supporters are good at their opinions but extremely poor at facts.
      Sally Fiction wrote a book on why Manston would be good but never discussed whether it was viable.
      Her main failing was to write that by year six 10000 atms would be reached but the average load would be 18 tonnes. Even an HGV manages 38 tonnes and most 747-400s will carry 95 tonnes. You do the maths

  47. Bruce just go into Google. Riveroak (not RSP) but the company behind RSP, are property developers. At the DCO enquiry it became clear that they had never done airports before and that they didn’t have any money to do it now. Nobody will invest in Manston as an airport because it has been proven not to work.

  48. It is an entirely different kind of airport planned – on an entirely different scale to anything before Ed Roe. It for once stands a realistic chance of success. Previously it ‘failed’ because it was under-invested in and set up to ‘fail’ to grab the land for housing. Fortunately this has been stopped in its tracks. This is something entirely different now. You are simply trying to convince people to not support it. Won’t work, sorry.

    • Bruce. I enjoy talking to you. However the only thing that is bigger is the extent of the lies. They have no money and they are a property development company.
      It’s not the investment that caused the failures in the past it’s that there is no need for it. People won’t invest in it this time either because it will never work.
      It is worth making clear. The reason that we are anti airport is because it has nothing to offer the area. Ramsgate is booming since the airport closed. Realistically the airport would only ever offer a handful of jobs at the cost of ruining a wonderful story of success and growing employment.

    • “Previously it ‘failed’ because it was under-invested in and set up to ‘fail’ to grab the land for housing”.
      And who was MD at the time?
      None other than Mr Tony Freudmann, Director of RSP.

    • “It is an entirely different kind of airport planned – on an entirely different scale to anything before Ed Roe. It for once stands a realistic chance of success.”
      Who actually has said that aviation at Manston will be a success? Anyone significant?

    • Bruce when you explain just how they will repay any monies invested (currently alleged to be £34M) and at what rate of interest and over what timescale then a meaningful conversation can be held. However you can’t because Freudmann cannot explain it either

    • Fact: Up to 1998 Ait Traffic control, Security, and fire n safety was managed by the RAF worth a cool £3M or more a year.
      Fact: In 1989 Seaborne signed a 125 lease on the Civilian Enclave
      Fact: Wiggins bought out the lease from Seabourne in 1997 and in 1998 bought out the RAF on a deal with 3 payments and the last payment to the RAF was unpaid in 2005 when it went tits up.
      Now try and explain just how profitable Manston really was

  49. Close your eyes if you must Marva Rees. The despoilation of Thanet covering countryside with horrible poor quality houses is plain to see. Destruction of environment and wildlife habitats is happening if you choose to accept it or not. By supporting housing developers you are supporting that. Sorry. As for Ed – Ramsgate booming? It must be a different Ramsgate than the one I know😂! I know one down the road that I still do not like being in during the day because it is depressing. Crumbling buildings, empty premises/closed shops, down-and-outs begging, much Carlsberg Special-Brew being drunk before 12 noon. Dreadful. Many of those buildings could be converted for housing. While there’s a will there’s a way. Also Ed, regarding lies – what do you think about Ann Gloag’s lies on acquiring and closing Manston? Also what about the lies put about re ridiculous ideas for wave-pools, film-studios etc. It is patently obvious the previous owners’ of Manston Airport only intended to obtain planning permission then sell off the land for housing. A plan for a big estate by Quinn Estates kept well quiet by KCC and TDC was leaked! – now that was a whopper!!

    • Nice bit of obfuscation.
      Now tell us where the expert opinion is that says that aviation at Manston will be a commercial success.

    • Re Bruce’s 10.59 posting. What do you mean by “Close your eyes if you must”? Please tell me what you think I am closing my eyes to, or on. I live a few minutes’ walk away from Ramsgate town centre and see almost every day the things you list. How can the presence of a cargo airport a couple of miles away do anything to improve these things? They are caused by years of globalization (destroying British industry), council and personal poverty, neglect and recent governments’ policies. While the Tories are in power things will get worse for all except the very rich.

    • I agree that there have been many lies told about the airport. Tony Freudmann is very unlikely to be the first person to be telling the truth don’t you think?

  50. There is no point. People will still be using the big London airports to fly, businesses will still want to use road rather than air. The noise will be unbearable. The pollution will be unacceptable given that we now know the consequences of climate change. It is in a really inconvenient location. There won’t be that many jobs, and it’ll probably go bust 5 years later. There must be something better that we can do with the land than create another useless airport.

  51. Andrew (Hollins) – if you support houses? – and you say RSP really want to build houses rather than create an airport? – Why are you kit supporting RSP! You airport anti people are in cloud-cuckoo land. You try desperately to convince us to follow you – but tie yourself up in knots of your desperation and illogicality

    • I don’t know who Andrew Hollins is; certainly not me.
      However, I would be grateful if you’d point out my knots of desperation and illogicality.

    • No night flights *except* unlimited “late arrivals”. No matter what you call them, if they fly over your house at night, they’re night flights.
      In his puff piece, Mr F refers to Ryanair flights from New York. Disconcerting, is it not, that a director of an organisation wanting to revive aviation at Manston, has so little grasp of the aviation market. Ryanair don’t fly from or to the States.
      As yet, no-one knows what the Covenant on the land sale was. However, if it was unduly restrictive, and of no benefit to SHP, it could be lifted.
      As had been remarked on elsewhere, one has to wonder why RSP is so hell bent on the very risky venture of commercial aviation, when they could get a good return on their investment in a couple of years if they went for housing .

    • Angela – if you believe that you will believe anything. This is Tony Freudmann who has only ever been involved in airports to develop housing. As we know he is a proven liar – I take great comfort from this interview – he struggles with even the basic detail and doesn’t name a single operator who is interested in flying from Manston. Nobody has ever been interested in flying from Manston, other than the RAF. In addition we all know Riveroak do not do airports – they are a property company. Just go to Google.

    • Since when did dear Tone work at a business park in 1993 for Wiggins as Wiggins didn’t own one and Manston Business park didn’t get set up until KCC bought the land off the receiver in 2006.

      I wonder if Angela can shed some light on this?

  52. This is Riveroak’s description of its business model…

    ‘RiverOak Investment Corp., LLC invests in commercial and residential real estate through discretionary co-mingled, closed-end funds and private separate accounts’.

    Weird that they now want to set up an airport….

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